Official C5 haters

[Dr.Carter 23]

I agree with everyone but I think Mack Maine did amazing job far as putting Wayne mom on few skits & creating good balance with the whole album so we can get mature Wayne but put some hits on there to give us different vibe I’m glad they didn’t make 2018 C5 double album like OG C5 was supposed to be

[no_tom&jerry]

I feel you, I love Weezy, I love a number of these OG songs, I want to see that charisma and victory lap also. I think though that with all he has been through it would have been weird for official C5 to be like that, it makes sense it was more complex. I think we as fans have to appreciate the greatness in all sides of Wayne. And I say this shit about IANAHB2 even, I still love a lot of his peppier songs that are shallow rapping and littered with sexual references.

If I am being honest, a decent amount of this OG C5, including some of the songs I really like, is closer to an IANAHB feel to me than a Carter feel (with the exception of LOMC, SP and some others). And because I actually like the IANAHBs I don't mean that as an insult just a statement on the vibe I personally get. I really think the official C5 is more appropriate Carter material because its deeper, I guess its that simple for me.

I also do strongly feel a theme and takeaway of official C5 is triumph over adversity. That is the clear message of Let it All Work Out, Cant be Broken, Dope New Gospel and I am sure I am forgetting others. I think its powerful that the same Wayne can expose the I got humbled and hurt and I'm tired stuff and the suicide stuff and have fans like crying in their keyboards and have the album still do numbers even though it didn't have bangers in the traditional sense. "That's power yes" just more subtle IMO

Very well said. The thing I don't understand though is how people feel C5 lacked energy. I guess maybe it felt like that because the hard and softer songs were very much intertwined. Let it fly, used 2, Mona Lisa, can't be broken, open safe... those were some of the most high energy Wayne songs in a long time. but there was a darkness to most of them, so I can understand how it might be perceived as low energy.

I was listening yesterday to OG C5 in order of how it was supposed to be -- early singles, alt. versions included... the whole story -- and I categorically unequivocally DO NOT DENY that there is a dope energy to how it was originally envisioned. Even the way Believe Me fits perfectly into the puzzle, and so on. It's mad fun. And he is rapping his ass off.

But Wayne gives us that on nearly every project. It's what he is programmed and expected to deliver. Also, I think a lot of people have to remember something important: That Wayne was not getting results anymore. Those 4 or 5 2014 singles they put out fucking bombed, more or less. You can go check my back posts, I have always backed my theory that the Birdman beef was never real*. YMCM saw in 2014 (following the 2011 falling off of C4) that when it came time to make C5 Wayne's name just wasn't what it once was.

They knew that C5 was their golden goose, but that shit wasn't gonna lay no eggs if the goose was wack and shitting turds! Being the true hustlers they are, Birdman and Wayne decided to ENGINEER a classic on par with Detox, etc. So they agreed to the terms. Years and years passed, and they were able to get a reading on what the public liked or didn't like; what the fans needed, but also what the non-fans needed to buy records or stream them, whatever.

It was no coincidence that by the time D6/D6R came out to some critical fanfare, C5 came out next. They'd found the pulse. Why do you think Wayne rapping like D6 on most of C5? It's because half of it was recorded in the time between D6 and C5 -- and the other half was polished up during that 2018 time period.

What they hadn't accounted for was the fact that Wayne wasn't getting any younger. He was too old to be relevant in a sea of imposters and the new school; too young to be "elder statesman of rap" status.

So what did they do?

They went for the mature, introspective material. but don't get it twisted -- and too many ppl do -- C5 may not be the high wire mixtape style rhymefest we're used to, but it still has fucking bars all day long. Think of how hype y'all were when it came out. We were all on this bitch quoting our favorite lines and songs, etc. As usual!

Some of you may have found C5 turned "boring" over time, but y'all were EXCITED when you heard hard-ass fucking bars that were more serious, but still clever and doper than anything he'd done in a while. Think about it. When C5 came out were were drunk off the highs and lows of D6/6R. It was an embarrassment of riches! Just endless bars. So when we heard the discipline and quality control of C5 we were blown away.

So many of the C5 flows are evident on D6 and other recent projects, but the C5 appearances of these flows and ideas seemed to be the absolute distillation and crystallization of it all. If it wasn't perfect, it didn't make the cut. And maybe perfection is eventually boring to some of us. Who knows....

But I do know this: C5 is endlessly enjoyable for me, and always will be. There are times where I wish there were a few songs in between STSOR and Demon, so the loose, unhinged vibe established with Open Safe and STSOR could've continued. Holy and Scottie Pippen would've been dope there. Life of Mr Carter would've been dope before Used 2.

But Just Chill, Light Up, Mute, Start a Fire... stuff like that... I think the artistic quality control of C5 was just too high for that in 2018. Wayne had changed. The world had changed. Music had changed.

Also, remember: due to snowflake-ass pussies Wayne even got a few raised eyebrows off "Stuck her hand in the fan blade". Half the shit in the OG C5 songs would've gotten him fucking blacklisted in today's fucked up, #metoo, liberal though police world. Lol. His swan song would've been written off as a misogynystic disaster, no matter how good it was.

Food for thought.



*To date, I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the Birdman Wayne beef was real. Anyone can file lawsuits and rescind them. I would say that bus shooting arrest was perhaps the only thing that played in favor of it being real -- and even that could've been staged. Is it possible that Winfrey got himself locked up after acting a damn fool not realizing the beef wasn't real, trying to curry Birdman's favor? Absolutely! And after that Birdman voice message that leaked, nothing even happened to him. Fishy.

[jhoya101]

Very well said. The thing I don't understand though is how people feel C5 lacked energy. I guess maybe it felt like that because the hard and softer songs were very much intertwined. Let it fly, used 2, Mona Lisa, can't be broken, open safe... those were some of the most high energy Wayne songs in a long time. but there was a darkness to most of them, so I can understand how it might be perceived as low energy.

I was listening yesterday to OG C5 in order of how it was supposed to be -- early singles, alt. versions included... the whole story -- and I categorically unequivocally DO NOT DENY that there is a dope energy to how it was originally envisioned. Even the way Believe Me fits perfectly into the puzzle, and so on. It's mad fun. And he is rapping his ass off.

But Wayne gives us that on nearly every project. It's what he is programmed and expected to deliver. Also, I think a lot of people have to remember something important: That Wayne was not getting results anymore. Those 4 or 5 2014 singles they put out fucking bombed, more or less. You can go check my back posts, I have always backed my theory that the Birdman beef was never real*. YMCM saw in 2014 (following the 2011 falling off of C4) that when it came time to make C5 Wayne's name just wasn't what it once was.

They knew that C5 was their golden goose, but that shit wasn't gonna lay no eggs if the goose was wack and shitting turds! Being the true hustlers they are, Birdman and Wayne decided to ENGINEER a classic on par with Detox, etc. So they agreed to the terms. Years and years passed, and they were able to get a reading on what the public liked or didn't like; what the fans needed, but also what the non-fans needed to buy records or stream them, whatever.

It was no coincidence that by the time D6/D6R came out to some critical fanfare, C5 came out next. They'd found the pulse. Why do you think Wayne rapping like D6 on most of C5? It's because half of it was recorded in the time between D6 and C5 -- and the other half was polished up during that 2018 time period.

What they hadn't accounted for was the fact that Wayne wasn't getting any younger. He was too old to be relevant in a sea of imposters and the new school; too young to be "elder statesman of rap" status.

So what did they do?

They went for the mature, introspective material. but don't get it twisted -- and too many ppl do -- C5 may not be the high wire mixtape style rhymefest we're used to, but it still has fucking bars all day long. Think of how hype y'all were when it came out. We were all on this bitch quoting our favorite lines and songs, etc. As usual!

Some of you may have found C5 turned "boring" over time, but y'all were EXCITED when you heard hard-ass fucking bars that were more serious, but still clever and doper than anything he'd done in a while. Think about it. When C5 came out were were drunk off the highs and lows of D6/6R. It was an embarrassment of riches! Just endless bars. So when we heard the discipline and quality control of C5 we were blown away.

So many of the C5 flows are evident on D6 and other recent projects, but the C5 appearances of these flows and ideas seemed to be the absolute distillation and crystallization of it all. If it wasn't perfect, it didn't make the cut. And maybe perfection is eventually boring to some of us. Who knows....

But I do know this: C5 is endlessly enjoyable for me, and always will be. There are times where I wish there were a few songs in between STSOR and Demon, so the loose, unhinged vibe established with Open Safe and STSOR could've continued. Holy and Scottie Pippen would've been dope there. Life of Mr Carter would've been dope before Used 2.

But Just Chill, Light Up, Mute, Start a Fire... stuff like that... I think the artistic quality control of C5 was just too high for that in 2018. Wayne had changed. The world had changed. Music had changed.

Also, remember: due to snowflake-ass pussies Wayne even got a few raised eyebrows off "Stuck her hand in the fan blade". Half the shit in the OG C5 songs would've gotten him fucking blacklisted in today's fucked up, #metoo, liberal though police world. Lol. His swan song would've been written off as a misogynystic disaster, no matter how good it was.

Food for thought.



*To date, I have yet to see any compelling evidence that the Birdman Wayne beef was real. Anyone can file lawsuits and rescind them. I would say that bus shooting arrest was perhaps the only thing that played in favor of it being real -- and even that could've been staged. Is it possible that Winfrey got himself locked up after acting a damn fool not realizing the beef wasn't real, trying to curry Birdman's favor? Absolutely! And after that Birdman voice message that leaked, nothing even happened to him. Fishy.

Lol I did kind of feel the Birdman beef was fake. It don’t even seem tht real. Like some of the stuff they was doing. Even some of Wayne’s disses to him didn’t sound tht real.

And maybe another reason they didn’t release the og cv was just because of the vibe. It had the vibe of I’m the greatest ever and this is my magnum opus. And the Way wayne was perceived during the time of the release was mockery. Like I always said, while Wayne made the original cv he didn’t know he had fallen off. When it was time to release it he saw what his image was. So he went on a comeback and birthed this double time flow to show he really is the best. But the consensus of Wayne at the time was that he was going through a lot and he finally made it out. The original plan was supposed to be he just went through the greatest run in dam near music history and was about to release his farewell album. Like kobes 61 point game. He lowkey had to prove himself to people again which birthed songs like dedicate and can’t be broken. As opposed to songs like Scottie Pippen and never Really Mattered which had more of a swagger to them. He tried to prove himself once early in his career but he lowkey had to. And u could feel his hunger. This comeback was more so for an image and I don’t know if he was truly as hungry as when he first had to prove himself in tht pre 07 era

And that was my only knock. This wasn’t what I personally even felt Wayne wanted to put out. This wasn’t the image of carter v he had in mind. This was what he had to put out to fit the image he had picked up. If we didn’t dramatize his fall off carter v would’ve been a classic.

[BrewCityYM]

Tha Carter V showed simply

Wayne will never be what he once was and is faaaaaaaar from it ........

Nothing more nothing less

[bobtom37]

After hearing the leak I'm starting to think Wayne's team is pretty capable in they choose to put out and not put out.

[jhoya101]

But then again we wouldn’t have got songs like dope New Gospel. tht “thank god weezy back order is am restored all is right with the world” like line

And that vibe. Tht dope New Gospel, Hittas vibe. I’m sorry Yal I can’t stress enough how much I loved tht vibe and the vibe of the og. Like it really hit home. To me it’s a continuation of his first prime. Like he never had tht vibe before. He had tht hunger vibe, that I’m beginning to feel myself vibe, that I’m a rockstar and can do no wrong, the i did it and I made it to the top so now fck it vibe(trukfit era), and then ending with the let’s get back to the booth and show everybody one last time the greatest rapper to ever do it vibe. You know. It was a I did it I’m the greatest ever like vibe

He even sed the og stsor, “this my last hurrah, so that mean that I’m great”

He felt that. Lol then look, you know, he scrapped tht whole verse. That was part of scrapping the album. That album was supposed to symbolize his greatness and they scrapped it because in one of the most flawless careers ever, after one off year we wrote him off and ruined what would’ve been the greatest album of all time. Dam

- - - Updated - - -

Tha Carter V showed simply

Wayne will never be what he once was and is faaaaaaaar from it ........

Nothing more nothing less

Og or current

- - - Updated - - -

Cuz og sounded like straight prime Wayne at times. New carter v never did.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol it’s prob why they scrapped Scottie pippen. It had tht cold blooded cockiness tht showed he was the greatest rapper ever. It would’ve fit perfectly on the og. In the middle of an album where he’s virtually basking in the hard work he put into become the greatest ever, he shows he’s still doing it and is still a beast.

[youngben]

retail c5 is much better

very concise and he's not throwing filler lines around

I think people are just focusing on how good songs like scottie pippen are and over hyping it

[bhawks24]

retail c5 is much better

very concise and he's not throwing filler lines around

I think people are just focusing on how good songs like scottie pippen are and over hyping it

Better Get Em (if finished)
Take it Slow
Scottie Pippen
LOMC
And Holy
Are the only tracks that 'should have' made the official CV
I love Never Really Mattered, but it's such a hypocritical track. $ is the 'reason' this leak wasn't released.

Official CV is overall better than the leak even though Scottie Pippen and LOMC might be the best tracks between both versions of the Album.

[DLynn14]

Better Get Em (if finished)
Take it Slow
Scottie Pippen
LOMC
And Holy
Are the only tracks that 'should have' made the official CV
I love Never Really Mattered, but it's such a hypocritical track. $ is the 'reason' this leak wasn't released.

Official CV is overall better than the leak even though Scottie Pippen and LOMC might be the best tracks between both versions of the Album.

I am circling in on a similar conclusion, but still digesting

Agree about NRM, its a vibe I never want killed, but at the same time feels strange for obvious reasons and would have looked even stranger on the album.

[thecarter19]

c5 (official and leaked) is the best collection of tracks ever imagined.

[no_tom&jerry]

Lol I did kind of feel the Birdman beef was fake. It don’t even seem tht real. Like some of the stuff they was doing. Even some of Wayne’s disses to him didn’t sound tht real.

And maybe another reason they didn’t release the og cv was just because of the vibe. It had the vibe of I’m the greatest ever and this is my magnum opus. And the Way wayne was perceived during the time of the release was mockery. Like I always said, while Wayne made the original cv he didn’t know he had fallen off. When it was time to release it he saw what his image was. So he went on a comeback and birthed this double time flow to show he really is the best. But the consensus of Wayne at the time was that he was going through a lot and he finally made it out. The original plan was supposed to be he just went through the greatest run in dam near music history and was about to release his farewell album. Like kobes 61 point game. He lowkey had to prove himself to people again which birthed songs like dedicate and can’t be broken. As opposed to songs like Scottie Pippen and never Really Mattered which had more of a swagger to them. He tried to prove himself once early in his career but he lowkey had to. And u could feel his hunger. This comeback was more so for an image and I don’t know if he was truly as hungry as when he first had to prove himself in tht pre 07 era

And that was my only knock. This wasn’t what I personally even felt Wayne wanted to put out. This wasn’t the image of carter v he had in mind. This was what he had to put out to fit the image he had picked up. If we didn’t dramatize his fall off carter v would’ve been a classic.

I agree with the whole first part of what you said. Very much so. The only thing I beg to differ on is this: Carter V was as close to a classic as I think it ever could have been. Of course everyone defines classic differently. But let's be dead honest with each other: Short of releasing a complete retread to 07 flow, nobody in music was gonna consider C5 a classic. And even if he DID that, there would still be haters like "when this nigga gonna grow up?! this supposed to be his career topping farewell record! wtf!"

you know it as well as I do!

So basically there were 3 ways Wayne could've gone about C5:

1- copy his 2006-08 style verbatim and create an absolute fan favorite, a probably critical favorite, but risk being called "stuck in the past". Also, he would be going against his natural inclination and stunting his development (no pun intended on stunting!)

2- he could've released the 2014 version which was dope lyrically, but he still had a lot of his old, IANAHB/D4-5 bad habits on some tracks. Any true Wayne fan can hear this. Newer fans would love it, half his old fans would hate it, and critics would likely pan it like they panned all his similar mixtapes. Even S4TW2 and FWA got mixed reviews, and they were dope for the time.

3- he could go for a career spanning epic, more concise than 2014 version, but more streamlined too. It would include substantial stretches of almost athletic verbal feats of rapping, but also some of the most heartfelt and painful stuff he's ever committed to record. It would satisfy most old fans, a lot of new fans, critics would love it, and it would go platinum even in 2018. And it did.

Clearly, scenario #3 is what we got. C5 doesn't have tracks like Form Good, Holy... Scottie Pippen's closest comparison, I guess, is Dedicate. But even Dedicate, there was no fat on the bone! That's what C5 was all about. It was a lean, heat seeking missile. At any given moment, if it was delivering dope rapping acrobatics (Let it Fly), insane storytelling (Mona Lisa), syrupy balladry (Perfect Strangers), pure banger (Uproar), emotional epic (Let It All Work Out), it did its job perfectly.

Some people seem to love to make the argument that this caused the album to be soulless or "boring". I couldn't disagree more. I love a mixtape weezy style free for all as much as any of you... in fact, that might even be my favorite side of Wayne (when done correctly). But tbh, we still got that, but it was caged by song structure. And you know what? That discipline really didn't hurt Wayne. After D6/6R I was honestly burnt out on no-hook free styling at that double time speed of his. I love the project overall, but I gotta be honest and say it was a breath of relief to see that Wayne could still make SONGS in a more traditional sense. And I always marveled at the quality control of C5, as I've stated endlessly on this forum since the album came out.

Some of my biggest gripes about Wayne since he got out of prison have been nonstop gratuitous nonsense about his goons and whatever else, constant references to his dick and how wet his girl's pussy is, not being confident enough to call himself the best rapper alive anymore and prove it again, the grating childish flow of the D4-5/IANAHB2 days, etc. On C5 he either did away with those things, or honed them to hilarious perfection.

Open Safe and STSOR are the closest C5 comes to the word-drunk, goofy Wayne we all love, but sometimes I think: Any more than that might have been weird. Maybe for another project, but somehow not C5. If that makes sense.

I think a lot of people give Mack and Tez a hard time for trying to give C5 a theme and structure. Mack especially. This dude probably had the job of sitting there listening to shit, and having to tell LIL FUCKING WAYNE "we gonna have to redo these few lines, because a lyric about your cock being a cyclops ain't gonna read well on a career swan song album". And Wayne obliged him! Also, I think it's interesting that Mack wanted to put out 1 or even 2 more volumes, which I'm sure was so the bangers and goofy but dope stuff could see the light of day under the official C5 title... but it was WAYNE who shot that down. So Wayne made the decision to keep C5 a much more serious affair overall.

But let's be fair. Even on a serious affair we all still enjoyed batshit crazy lyrics like:

Your bitch ashy, she keep a ashtray wit her.

Federalés on my ass, fucking had a boat chase, nigga!

Liz, that's enough you could put your hands down!

Shoot him in the head, bad hair day.

I been riding round the city with the safety off... Glock 9, and it's pretty like a baby doll

Shoot ya in ya head, give ya ass three eyes
And you still ain't seen a fucking thing until you see five/C5

I ain't kidding, I ain't playing (I ain't Kid and I ain't Play), fuck up your house party (House Party)

Second line, second line, Tunechi got effective lines
Rough edges like a box of Checker fries, that's a line

I'm smoking 'icky, watching Ricky Lake
I got a lawyer that turn any case into a pillow case

Money in the air, who said white men can't jump?

Blunt big, big as mama June off the diet plan

Go retarded as shit, you go sweet tangy
I go tart on this shit, I'ma barf on this shit

'Cause like Bart, you a simp, And your water don't drip so your garden ain't shit
You just countin' the money, I'm drownin' in money like "Where the fuck is the lifeguard in this bitch?!!"

Now, that's just a few crazy-ass, old school, laugh out loud Wayne bars that popped into my mind. There's a fucking treasure trove more where that came from on C5 and y'all know it too. I think maybe the fact that the beats were usually pretty dark, and the fact that almost every song has seriousness to it makes it seem like it's a humorless affair. But it isn't.

And here's the fucked up conclusion: On C5 Wayne delivered exactly what most of y'all been asking him to do for fucking 8 years. Nigga does it, and y'all want what you told him to stop doing. smh

Stop hating, people. Be grateful you got an official classic. And if you arrange these outtakes just right, you got an unofficial classic. A horse of a different color. And as much as it's tempting to consider this "the OG C5" or "the original vision", rest assured... IT AINT THAT. These are dope songs, but they're outtakes. That's why Wayne didn't redo any of these lyrics in 2018 (that we know of). That's why these songs ain't on C5. Not on an album = outtakes.

[DLynn14]

This dude probably had the job of sitting there listening to shit, and having to tell LIL FUCKING WAYNE "we gonna have to redo these few lines, because a lyric about your cock being a cyclops ain't gonna read well on a career swan song album".*

Hilarious